WOMEN STILL MIS-TREATED?
WOMEN STILL MIS-TREATED?
In the 60s and 70s the Women's Movement tried to CHANGE the way women were treated.
My understanding is that the ME TOO! Movement has strived to do much the same.
Yet Netflix and many other tv providers and movie producers continue to show women as sexual objects
not TOTAL HUMAN BEINGS
H B (local friend who responded)
I’m not sure I agree. In most cases when it comes to shows like this it’s society’s conservative view of sexuality that causes men to disconnect and view the actress as a object not a person. It’s like blaming a girl for what she was wearing not the attacker. Often shows like this or even the women in adult fields are empowered. The progression of the women’s movement is in choices of actresses to do shows like this without being shamed for it.
Alan
H....it is the SINGLE MINDED POINTS OF VIEW that there is only ONE RIGHT WAY.
Does making woman objects cause men and boys to do what they do?
Will ALL HUMAN BEINGS EVER TREAT EACH OTHER THE SAME?
Alan
HB over the 40+ years of my commitment to the development of Creative Thinking and attempting to find ways to help people
Understand themselves more so that they can live and work with others more effectively
that has caused me to look at life, an issue in life as if it was a statistical graph from
EXTREMELY POOR/BAD
to
AVERAGE
to
EXTREMELY IDEALISTIC
in the middle of the abstract BELL CURVE is supposedly the accepted range
but life and human beings rarely are all focus on the AVERAGE or CORRECT WAY.
AM (friend from another country, culture, continent who responded)
Not sure what this show is about, but I think the MeToo movement has more to do with women being sexual beings but having autonomy over their bodies and what happens to their bodies. It's about consent, and that they not be taken advantage of irrespective of what they wear or what their sexual preferences are.
I think it's exactly this notion that women should act and dress conservatively to be viewed and treated with respect that is problematic.
Robert Alan Black thank you AM
the ambiquitiousness of how women or any human being is treated or wants to be seen, heard, known, treated is the issue I am raising.
When I was doing a weekly cartoon on the editorial page of the local paper I did one about the vast variety of Clothing and Life Styles that can be found here in Athens, a large college town (150,000 citizens + 35,000+ students), the only real concentrated liberal area in an ultra conservative state in the southeast of the US.
Robert Alan Black to AM
these issues like so many others around the world are treated like 1 + 1, black and white, simplistic, single answer problems.
AM
Robert Alan Black you're right, it is very ambiguous. I actually had this conversation with an ethics professor the other day. She explained that although several movements have existed for a while, they're only gaining increasing traction now with the eve of social media and accelerated globalisation. She stated that it would consequently take quite a long time for the 'basic' philosophies and premises of these movements to settle as the world first tries to establish how and where it fits in on a global scale. I don't believe these things can ever be black/white and simplistic as there are too many variables to consider.
Part of the ambiguity lies in cultural understanding and allowance for these movements - some cultures and religions cannot accommodate a change in gender hierarchies or gender roles and so forth. So then the question is whether you uphold and protect, for instance, religious freedom first, or whether you protect and uphold human rights and equality first.
Some people fight for a certain aspect of a movement (like equal opportunities or opposing gender-based violence). It's really hard to fight for all these things at once, especially at a policymaking and legal framework level.
Robert Alan Black
I don't profess to be right
I rarely accept that there is a RIGHT ANSWER for any human question.
I have been BINGE watching Downton Abbey episodes the past couple of weeks.
1900s to 1930s - women fighting for rights is one of their themes, even within the family...each daughter fighting for their own
Fiddler on the Roof the 3 daughters also each fought for the freedoms they wanted.
No doubt there are Egyptian, Greek, Roman stories about the same issues
208 countries
are there 208 different clusters of WOMEN's RIGHTS?
AM
I'm sure there are, and these will also differ in different areas of the world.
In places where women are incredibly marginalised you will hardly see a woman fighting to assert her rights to BDSM (as I assume the series you refer to is about) - these women usually also accept a certain hierarchy. For them it's a fight against severe atrocities like forced genital mutilation and the right to be educated.
The factions and their goals differ between cultures and their pressing needs as well as how liberal or conservative a community is in general.
This is where social media stirs the pot. People are now increasingly aware of how things work around the world and it's creating a global narrative around certain issues which is often very confusing.
Robert Alan Black to AM
perhaps the majority around the society mean may
Several tv shows like Downton Abbey, NCIS, West Wing and many others has shown where some WOMEN are not accepting the norms of their societies or cultures and FIGHTING or LEAVING.
My mother left Scotland. So did 2 of her 4 sisters to change their lives in either the US or Canada.
AM
Indeed. But most of these stories present the 'movements' in ways which appeal to their audience. They push the boundaries only as far as their target market would generally be willing to accommodate it.
As you switch between shows for different viewers and in different regions the way any topic is presented differs greatly.
Robert Alan Black
what is that quote often used
The worst thing is for GOOD PEOPLE to DO NOTHING
then again what's makes a GOOD PERSON a GOOD PERSON?
AM
Interesting question. I tend to think good people are those who know that they know very little and still try to learn how to make life easier for others. Those who are willing to accept that they are wrong but push on none the less.
Robert Alan Black AM
my point is there are some people who are willing to TAKE A STAND even if it means they lose their FREEDOM or their LIFE striving to improve conditions.
When you find absolutely correct solutions
please share them.
AM
I don't think there will ever be any absolute correct solutions.
Robert Alan Black AM
your response 1m ago....
that is one approach, way of thinking...
Robert Alan Black AM
nor do I.....
My 75 years has not shown me any
even in one 24 hr period using the original internet before it became commercialized I asked friends from around the globe for possible, probable, potential maybe even provable answers for this question
what is one and one?
here is a web page sharing 220 of their answers
http://www.cre8ng.com/materials//ideas-one-and-one.shtml
as many people have said over the millenium
It is usually the poorly stated question that is the problem.
CRE8NG.COM
Idea Generators: How to Improve on Banks
Robert Alan Black
notice that most of the statements worded the question differently than the one I asked
what is one and one?
I did not ask
What is 1 + 1?
AM
Indeed. I really don't know what makes a good person. I'm still learning myself.
I suppose at the heart of it 'first do no harm' is a good basis.
Perhaps one must use Maslow's hierarchy as a premise - are you feeding or housing someone? Keeping them safe? Giving them love? Boosting their esteem? Helping them reach their goals?
I've a tattoo on my arm representing Homer's Golden Chain, from Homer's the Iliad. Homer felt that man should work him/herself down a chain by shedding parts of themselves to reach an ideal state. At its core it's a shedding of your own narcissism and needs.
Robert Alan Black
is a Maslow's Hierarchy I have never seen before.
the last book of his writings (put together by graduate student(s) after his death challenged his own famous Hierarchy (always incorrectly shown as a pyramid).
reads like a Leadership GURU, MENTOR, AUTHOR, THOUGHT LEADER created that hierarchy
never read that Homer belief.
AM
Let me just clarify the Homer bit, he never really clarified the meaning of the golden chain, the text was analysed/interpreted by Anton Kirchweger in the 1700s in his novel Aurea Catena Homer.
I liked this interpretation and it therefore has meaning for me whether this was the original intent or not.
No one really knows whether Homer really existed. Some scholars believe 'Homer' is a pseudonym for a collective philisophical body of work by multiple authors.
AM
As for the Maslow's needs - yes, I quickly reinterpreted those myself (physiological needs, safety, love/belonging, esteem, self actualisation) .
Robert Alan Black
your last statement has been my understanding about many of the OLD WHITE GUYS who are quoted so often as being wise
Homer, Plato, Socrates, Tao Se, Confucius
Did they really exist
AM
Robert Alan Black I think it makes it easier for people to digest if they can cite one source and identify one 'icon'/author.
Robert Alan Black
AM in the Eupsychian Management book, a collection of rough drafts of possible articles written by Maslow during the last two years of his life one of them challenges most of what he had ever written about the Hierarchy.
When Merry and I were Masters students and taking a class about motivation theories we agreed that first the pyramid shape was false and the order was not absolute. Even Maslow questioned that too.
For both of us those 5 were in different orders and definitely of different significance to us.
In one of his last article drafts he admits that the Hierarchy theory was based upon interviews he had with students, faculty and guest who visited him in his office at Brandeis not on any true SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH Study(ies)
one of his last thoughts expressed was that he believed there was probably a hierarchy but wasn't sure how many levels there might be and that they may be different for different people in different cultures.
NICE THEORY
NOT AN ABSOLUTE SOLUTION.
Robert Alan Black
I think it makes it easier for people to digest if they can cite one source and identify one 'icon'/author.
it is a gimmick, trick, habit, teaching tool.....
Socratic Method still has more value in helping people learn.
Keep asking questions that they find or create answers for themselves
rather than packaged, cute little, bromides or bumper sticker quotes that are easy to quote out of CONTEXT.
AM
I don't necessarily care for the order. I believe, for instance, that esteem is crucial for motivation and helps a person 'help themselves'. But the needs are nice markers for how you can help a person as I noted before: care for them physically, keep them safe, give them love, boost their spirits, help them acquire skills and knowledge to reach their goals.
Robert Alan Black
AM great you have your own interpretation that has meaning for you.
AM
Robert Alan Black I fully agree about it being a gimmick. But it's hard to teach people to think and explore on a grand scale when you're not personally involved in their journey.
So the gimmick has its uses in a way.
Robert Alan Black all teaching tools can be useful
the more the Learner learns on their own the better
at the end if they haven't used the learnings
then the teaching was primarily a waste of time.
AM
Robert Alan Black I read a book yesterday that you may enjoy.
A Gift From The Darkness. It's a non-fiction account of one woman who escaped Boko Haram kidnapping in Nigeria.
You should take a look at one of the women (a German vicar) who works in these regions. Her primary goal is rehabilitation through education. Will see if I can find the link to the site.
Robert Alan Black
If it is available in electronic format and preferably for free I may read some of it.
I have read very few books completely from cover to cover since I returned in 2014.
I read in bits and pieces
i do not buy books
I occasionally will check them out from the public library or perhaps the UGA libraries if I truly want to read it.
AM
Also, it ties in to your original post.
The vicar purchased land which is wholly open to women. Since the women had gone through such horrendous abuses she believes that the property should be completely male-free to rid the place of any gender hierarchy whatsoever and to provide education and rehabilitation in this safe space. It's an interesting take on things.
It's not free. I think the Kindle format is around $4
AM
http://www.andreachoffmann.com
ANDREACHOFFMANN.COM
Andrea C. Hoffmann - author…
AM
Take a look at her work. She's a journalist who only covers non-fiction female accounts of 'beating the odds'. Mostly stories from wartorn countries and regions.
Robert Alan Black
I have bookmarked her website and one of her audio interviews and will read and explore over the weekend.
Robert Alan Black
very academic explanation to support the insanity of human beings
how many of the people in Saudi Arabia who were just executed had been men committing crimes against women
or
women committing their social crimes?
consistency and humans rarely go together
ultimate truths do not exist in the universe
In the 60s and 70s the Women's Movement tried to CHANGE the way women were treated.
My understanding is that the ME TOO! Movement has strived to do much the same.
Yet Netflix and many other tv providers and movie producers continue to show women as sexual objects
not TOTAL HUMAN BEINGS
H B (local friend who responded)
I’m not sure I agree. In most cases when it comes to shows like this it’s society’s conservative view of sexuality that causes men to disconnect and view the actress as a object not a person. It’s like blaming a girl for what she was wearing not the attacker. Often shows like this or even the women in adult fields are empowered. The progression of the women’s movement is in choices of actresses to do shows like this without being shamed for it.
Alan
H....it is the SINGLE MINDED POINTS OF VIEW that there is only ONE RIGHT WAY.
Does making woman objects cause men and boys to do what they do?
Will ALL HUMAN BEINGS EVER TREAT EACH OTHER THE SAME?
Alan
HB over the 40+ years of my commitment to the development of Creative Thinking and attempting to find ways to help people
Understand themselves more so that they can live and work with others more effectively
that has caused me to look at life, an issue in life as if it was a statistical graph from
EXTREMELY POOR/BAD
to
AVERAGE
to
EXTREMELY IDEALISTIC
in the middle of the abstract BELL CURVE is supposedly the accepted range
but life and human beings rarely are all focus on the AVERAGE or CORRECT WAY.
AM (friend from another country, culture, continent who responded)
Not sure what this show is about, but I think the MeToo movement has more to do with women being sexual beings but having autonomy over their bodies and what happens to their bodies. It's about consent, and that they not be taken advantage of irrespective of what they wear or what their sexual preferences are.
I think it's exactly this notion that women should act and dress conservatively to be viewed and treated with respect that is problematic.
Robert Alan Black thank you AM
the ambiquitiousness of how women or any human being is treated or wants to be seen, heard, known, treated is the issue I am raising.
When I was doing a weekly cartoon on the editorial page of the local paper I did one about the vast variety of Clothing and Life Styles that can be found here in Athens, a large college town (150,000 citizens + 35,000+ students), the only real concentrated liberal area in an ultra conservative state in the southeast of the US.
Robert Alan Black to AM
these issues like so many others around the world are treated like 1 + 1, black and white, simplistic, single answer problems.
AM
Robert Alan Black you're right, it is very ambiguous. I actually had this conversation with an ethics professor the other day. She explained that although several movements have existed for a while, they're only gaining increasing traction now with the eve of social media and accelerated globalisation. She stated that it would consequently take quite a long time for the 'basic' philosophies and premises of these movements to settle as the world first tries to establish how and where it fits in on a global scale. I don't believe these things can ever be black/white and simplistic as there are too many variables to consider.
Part of the ambiguity lies in cultural understanding and allowance for these movements - some cultures and religions cannot accommodate a change in gender hierarchies or gender roles and so forth. So then the question is whether you uphold and protect, for instance, religious freedom first, or whether you protect and uphold human rights and equality first.
Some people fight for a certain aspect of a movement (like equal opportunities or opposing gender-based violence). It's really hard to fight for all these things at once, especially at a policymaking and legal framework level.
Robert Alan Black
I don't profess to be right
I rarely accept that there is a RIGHT ANSWER for any human question.
I have been BINGE watching Downton Abbey episodes the past couple of weeks.
1900s to 1930s - women fighting for rights is one of their themes, even within the family...each daughter fighting for their own
Fiddler on the Roof the 3 daughters also each fought for the freedoms they wanted.
No doubt there are Egyptian, Greek, Roman stories about the same issues
208 countries
are there 208 different clusters of WOMEN's RIGHTS?
AM
I'm sure there are, and these will also differ in different areas of the world.
In places where women are incredibly marginalised you will hardly see a woman fighting to assert her rights to BDSM (as I assume the series you refer to is about) - these women usually also accept a certain hierarchy. For them it's a fight against severe atrocities like forced genital mutilation and the right to be educated.
The factions and their goals differ between cultures and their pressing needs as well as how liberal or conservative a community is in general.
This is where social media stirs the pot. People are now increasingly aware of how things work around the world and it's creating a global narrative around certain issues which is often very confusing.
Robert Alan Black to AM
perhaps the majority around the society mean may
Several tv shows like Downton Abbey, NCIS, West Wing and many others has shown where some WOMEN are not accepting the norms of their societies or cultures and FIGHTING or LEAVING.
My mother left Scotland. So did 2 of her 4 sisters to change their lives in either the US or Canada.
AM
Indeed. But most of these stories present the 'movements' in ways which appeal to their audience. They push the boundaries only as far as their target market would generally be willing to accommodate it.
As you switch between shows for different viewers and in different regions the way any topic is presented differs greatly.
Robert Alan Black
what is that quote often used
The worst thing is for GOOD PEOPLE to DO NOTHING
then again what's makes a GOOD PERSON a GOOD PERSON?
AM
Interesting question. I tend to think good people are those who know that they know very little and still try to learn how to make life easier for others. Those who are willing to accept that they are wrong but push on none the less.
Robert Alan Black AM
my point is there are some people who are willing to TAKE A STAND even if it means they lose their FREEDOM or their LIFE striving to improve conditions.
When you find absolutely correct solutions
please share them.
AM
I don't think there will ever be any absolute correct solutions.
Robert Alan Black AM
your response 1m ago....
that is one approach, way of thinking...
Robert Alan Black AM
nor do I.....
My 75 years has not shown me any
even in one 24 hr period using the original internet before it became commercialized I asked friends from around the globe for possible, probable, potential maybe even provable answers for this question
what is one and one?
here is a web page sharing 220 of their answers
http://www.cre8ng.com/materials//ideas-one-and-one.shtml
as many people have said over the millenium
It is usually the poorly stated question that is the problem.
CRE8NG.COM
Idea Generators: How to Improve on Banks
Robert Alan Black
notice that most of the statements worded the question differently than the one I asked
what is one and one?
I did not ask
What is 1 + 1?
AM
Indeed. I really don't know what makes a good person. I'm still learning myself.
I suppose at the heart of it 'first do no harm' is a good basis.
Perhaps one must use Maslow's hierarchy as a premise - are you feeding or housing someone? Keeping them safe? Giving them love? Boosting their esteem? Helping them reach their goals?
I've a tattoo on my arm representing Homer's Golden Chain, from Homer's the Iliad. Homer felt that man should work him/herself down a chain by shedding parts of themselves to reach an ideal state. At its core it's a shedding of your own narcissism and needs.
Robert Alan Black
is a Maslow's Hierarchy I have never seen before.
the last book of his writings (put together by graduate student(s) after his death challenged his own famous Hierarchy (always incorrectly shown as a pyramid).
reads like a Leadership GURU, MENTOR, AUTHOR, THOUGHT LEADER created that hierarchy
never read that Homer belief.
AM
Let me just clarify the Homer bit, he never really clarified the meaning of the golden chain, the text was analysed/interpreted by Anton Kirchweger in the 1700s in his novel Aurea Catena Homer.
I liked this interpretation and it therefore has meaning for me whether this was the original intent or not.
No one really knows whether Homer really existed. Some scholars believe 'Homer' is a pseudonym for a collective philisophical body of work by multiple authors.
AM
As for the Maslow's needs - yes, I quickly reinterpreted those myself (physiological needs, safety, love/belonging, esteem, self actualisation) .
Robert Alan Black
your last statement has been my understanding about many of the OLD WHITE GUYS who are quoted so often as being wise
Homer, Plato, Socrates, Tao Se, Confucius
Did they really exist
AM
Robert Alan Black I think it makes it easier for people to digest if they can cite one source and identify one 'icon'/author.
Robert Alan Black
AM in the Eupsychian Management book, a collection of rough drafts of possible articles written by Maslow during the last two years of his life one of them challenges most of what he had ever written about the Hierarchy.
When Merry and I were Masters students and taking a class about motivation theories we agreed that first the pyramid shape was false and the order was not absolute. Even Maslow questioned that too.
For both of us those 5 were in different orders and definitely of different significance to us.
In one of his last article drafts he admits that the Hierarchy theory was based upon interviews he had with students, faculty and guest who visited him in his office at Brandeis not on any true SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH Study(ies)
one of his last thoughts expressed was that he believed there was probably a hierarchy but wasn't sure how many levels there might be and that they may be different for different people in different cultures.
NICE THEORY
NOT AN ABSOLUTE SOLUTION.
Robert Alan Black
I think it makes it easier for people to digest if they can cite one source and identify one 'icon'/author.
it is a gimmick, trick, habit, teaching tool.....
Socratic Method still has more value in helping people learn.
Keep asking questions that they find or create answers for themselves
rather than packaged, cute little, bromides or bumper sticker quotes that are easy to quote out of CONTEXT.
AM
I don't necessarily care for the order. I believe, for instance, that esteem is crucial for motivation and helps a person 'help themselves'. But the needs are nice markers for how you can help a person as I noted before: care for them physically, keep them safe, give them love, boost their spirits, help them acquire skills and knowledge to reach their goals.
Robert Alan Black
AM great you have your own interpretation that has meaning for you.
AM
Robert Alan Black I fully agree about it being a gimmick. But it's hard to teach people to think and explore on a grand scale when you're not personally involved in their journey.
So the gimmick has its uses in a way.
Robert Alan Black all teaching tools can be useful
the more the Learner learns on their own the better
at the end if they haven't used the learnings
then the teaching was primarily a waste of time.
AM
Robert Alan Black I read a book yesterday that you may enjoy.
A Gift From The Darkness. It's a non-fiction account of one woman who escaped Boko Haram kidnapping in Nigeria.
You should take a look at one of the women (a German vicar) who works in these regions. Her primary goal is rehabilitation through education. Will see if I can find the link to the site.
Robert Alan Black
If it is available in electronic format and preferably for free I may read some of it.
I have read very few books completely from cover to cover since I returned in 2014.
I read in bits and pieces
i do not buy books
I occasionally will check them out from the public library or perhaps the UGA libraries if I truly want to read it.
AM
Also, it ties in to your original post.
The vicar purchased land which is wholly open to women. Since the women had gone through such horrendous abuses she believes that the property should be completely male-free to rid the place of any gender hierarchy whatsoever and to provide education and rehabilitation in this safe space. It's an interesting take on things.
It's not free. I think the Kindle format is around $4
AM
http://www.andreachoffmann.com
ANDREACHOFFMANN.COM
Andrea C. Hoffmann - author…
AM
Take a look at her work. She's a journalist who only covers non-fiction female accounts of 'beating the odds'. Mostly stories from wartorn countries and regions.
Robert Alan Black
I have bookmarked her website and one of her audio interviews and will read and explore over the weekend.
Robert Alan Black
very academic explanation to support the insanity of human beings
how many of the people in Saudi Arabia who were just executed had been men committing crimes against women
or
women committing their social crimes?
consistency and humans rarely go together
ultimate truths do not exist in the universe
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